It's very hard for me to decide.....
On one hand, I do believe people are born in the wrong body, and yes, i do believe that it's there body and there choice with what they do with it.

However, i can't shake the feeling that sometimes mistakes are made. People aren't really gendered confused, and there feelings about it will pass in a few years, by which point they are already the opposite gender.

I never really considered it in terms of for and against. But I guess this is how I feel about it.

As for what you said about "mistakes being made" - people say the same thing about LGBs - "Maybe it's just a phase," or "You're not really gay," or "You're just being bi for the attention," are things that people who are uncomfortable or don't know enough about sexuality say.

No one knows your own body, feelings, sexuality or gender identity better than you do. The transgendered feel from birth like they don't "fit" in with the rest of their biological sex or the societal gender identity forced onto them. They feel different their whole lives. It is not a phase, or a confusion, it's a feeling of disconnect, inadequacy and identification with the opposite gender.

Oh, i didn't say they do it for attention, but it's very common to feel out of place in your gender.
A lot of girls sometimes feel a bit like boys during puberty, dress like boys, hang out with boys, and they might feel a bit like a boy, that doesn't ALWAYS mean they want or should become one.
I know a lot of boys who like to do ballet, drama and hang out with the girls, but that doesn't necessarily mean a sex change is necessary either.
In school, i was the biggest tomboy there was, and i was worried that maybe i should be a boy, but now...well, I'm the most feminine person you could know!

'I know a lot of boys who like to do ballet, drama and hang out with the girls, but that doesn't necessarily mean a sex change is necessary either.'

Of course it does not. Because doing ballet and drama does not make you transgender, it has nothing to do with it. It just means these boys like ballet and drama, nothing more.

And like Cinders said, it's not a phase. I had a boy-ish phase, but I never felt like I should be a boy and it was just that - a phase. But transgenders don't feel like that for a year, they often had that feeling for the entire life.
And it often takes them years to come to the decision to actually have a sex-change, it is not a light decision.

People who cross gender role lines - IE, girls playing pirates in the mud, or boys playing with barbies and easy bake ovens - That's not the same as people who have a different gender identity. Barbies, baking, dirt and wrestling, these are all activities that society attributes to gender, not biology. In fact, in some cultures (mostly, matriarchal ones), girls are expected to wrestle and fight and boys are expected to keep the family. This is a cultural thing, and how culture and society views gender.

The transgendered don't just feel like they are culturally the opposite sex, they feel that they are mind and soul the opposite sex, and the only thing they lack is the body to go with it. And, as Sappp pointed out, it's a huge process to get gender reassignment surgery, not to mention expensive, and takes a lot of thought, time, and energy. Additionally, teenagers aren't the ones who get these surgeries, adults are.

The "doing it for attention" line was one specifically thrown at bisexuals. I was lumping into the group of ignorant comments about the LGBT community, like the "it's just a phase" and "why do you choose to be gay" and "you're not really, though, right?"

Good point.

But still, what does being gay have to do with transsexuals? isn't that two different subjects?

But, if we're to refer to your comment about when someone's gay it "isn't a phrase" it is perfectly normal for a heterosexual to explore his/her sexuality during puberty and kiss one of the same gender. that doesn't necessarily mean there gay/lesbian.

Sex change is a serious thing and you don't do it because you consider that you may be a boy or something.
You have to be sure of it, and usually it takes a lot of time with a psychologist, who checks if you have a right view on genders, yourself etc.
If you think differently, you should watch some document film or maybe at least Transamerica.

Being gay/bi is only relevant in that they suffer similar misconceptions by the sexual majority. In fact, bisexuals face slander from both sides of the fence, as several gays think that bisexuals are just "pretending" to be bi to avoid coming out gay. But that's another topic altogether. The reason for the comparison is to show that those arguments are made by people who don't know anything about sexuality, just as arguing that feelings of transgendered individuals are transient are made by people who don't know anything about that minority group.

When people "explore" and "experiment," they normally identify these actions as such. A straight person, who has a fling and/or relationship with a person from her same sex, may explain to a friend that she is just "trying to find my way," or "figuring things out." She doesn't identify as a lesbian, or even bisexual, necessarily. This isn't a phase either, but rather an exploration of human kind's vast and complicated sexuality. How people identify (gay/bi/straight/lesbian/pansexual/asexual­, etc) depends on how they respond to sexual situations most of the time, sometimes even all of the time, but Alfred Kinsey would argue that completely straight and completely gay individuals are actually in the minority. Rather, the majority of people, according to Kinsey's theory (with which I agree), fall on a sexual bell curve. Not a category delineated by labels and intellect.

But those who identify and come out as gay/lesbian/bisexual have generally done a lot of exploring of their own sexuality and found that this is the label/identity that they feel fits them best. Those still exploring may refuse to take a label, and that's fine, too. But this isn't something people grow out of. Sexuality is complicated. You don't turn gay over night, and you don't turn straight over night. But people figure these things out at different times. It doesn't mean they suddenly chose to be one or the other, it just means that they suddenly realized they were.

If somebody wants a sex-change, it is not my business to judge. I know nothing about that individual, so why should I think it's unnatural if they feel it's natural?

I followed some of the conversation you ppl have going on, and I'd like to add that there's a difference between transsexuality and transvestism. A girl who likes to dress up as a boy during her pre-teen years might not even fall under the category of transvestism but instead, as discussed, it's just a phase.
However, a person who enjoys wearing the other gender's clothes as an adult might simply enjoy the thrill of stepping into the opposite gender's role and get either emotional or sexual pleasure out of it. That's what transvestism is about. Transsexuality is another matter (not entirely unrelated to transvestism), where the person's need to step into the opposite gender's role is constant and defines their personality. It's not just a question of pleasure, it's a question of identity.

^^ Right. I was unaware that we even touched on transvestites, although looking back we alluded to girls and boys wearing the opposite genders clothes. But I didn't consider that to be transvestite behavior so much as children experimenting with gender roles.

I'm not against it, but I mean... It's weird! I cn just imagine my dad as a woman, and... Seriously, I wouldn't respect his choice at all. He would be history to me, and this is the person I like most in this world. "Miss Tiffanies" are kinda cool, though.

So what if someone wants to be a man/woman?
It's not any wrong!

wrong!!! don't fuck with nature!!!

What if nature fucked with you first? By the laws of bar brawls, that says you're allowed to throw a punch or two, amirite?

^^But don't all humans "fuck with nature" on a day to basis to begin with? Or are you against those every day pleasures too?

God doesn't make mistakes.
Just because a girl can be more masculine than feminine doesn't mean she was born as the wrong gender.

I don't buy the excuse that "God doesn't make mistakes." If a baby is born with a terminal illness, we don't let it go untreated because God obviously wanted that baby to be born with a terminal illness. We treat it, and try to cure it, and save the baby's life.

A transgendered person feels like s/he was born into the wrong body. Instead of saying, "Well, tough luck, God wanted you to be that way," we should treat their disease because we have the ability to do so. We can't just let these people go through life miserable, never feeling like they fit anywhere because we've decided that even if God allowed a baby to be born with HIV, we'll treat it, but if God allowed a baby to be born transgendered, we won't.

Additionally, I don't see anyone claiming "God doesn't make mistakes" when someone is born gay. The argument is a double-edged sword.

Well... It's not really in our place to judge. But I have to say, if your body was wrong for you, why were you born in it? People only FEEL it is wrong for them.
I don't hate them or anything, just saying.

So you're saying, if you were born with a birth defect that left your right arm underdeveloped, then you would be against prosthetics or other procedures that might give you a working arm, or at the very least feel balanced?

Wow, there is a awful lot of transgender hate here--- then again, why should i be suprised? It's new--- different, ground-breaking. Of course something like this will raise moral objections or at least shock.

Secondly @ cinders, i once made out with my best friend the good part of four years ago at a party. Now, we are still best friends but i have a boyfriend....and she has a fiance- both of these people are of the opposite gender. I'm not saying that anyone does anything for attention, all i'm saying is that theres a difference between being bisexxual and being bi- curious.

and lastly, please, can't there just be ONE pick question on the whole of fanpop in which god isn't suddenly thrown into the picture. Abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage, this, everything seems to be against god's will now-a-days. However, most of these things aren't even MENTIONED in the bible! And in the rare case it is, it is taken much more seriously than the fact that the bible has been re-writtened a thousand times. If it claimed in the bible that barbie was sinful, there would be a hell of a lot of crying eight year olds in this world.

^God gets thrown in all the time because people hold their religious beliefs very close to them. Just like how people use personal experience and personal morals to make decisions and opinions, they also use religion. Wasn't it you that said religion was "life-changing"? Why wouldn't they use a "life-changing" item to influence what they believe and why?

I have nothing against transgendered individuals. I actually don't even have anything against these people requesting a sex change operation.

However, I do become wary when it comes to teenagers.

There are teenagers who feel that they were born in the wrong body. They feel that their genders are not who they are, and believe that they were supposed to be born as the opposite sex.

While I do generally believe that this can be a true thing for people, when it comes to teenagers, parts of me do sincerely wonder if it's more teen angst.

If and when a teenage individual identifies him/herself as transger and wishes to have a surgery, I honestly believe that he or she shouldn't just have it right away. I think that he/she should consider waiting a few years, or maybe even until their adolescence years end. I can think of plenty of times and plenty of other people who once disliked their genders, and plenty of girls who were at one point complete tomboys but later on developed a more feminine side to their personality as they grew older and into their twenties.

And while I definitely believe that it's not just a stage or a rough time during a lot of transgered individuals' high school years or earlier years, I do think that this may not always be the case for all of them.






(*sighs* And I can just picture the responses I'm going to get.)

EDIT: Changed choice of words.

^I agree...

Well bri-marie, if you were agnostic and then became jewish, of course it would change your life. You cant just randomly turn around one day on your bus qeque and say "I think im a hundu now!" And then you dont live by all hindu beliefs or teachings.

(Suddenly rewrites the bible) Hey, debating against gods will everyone, get off this spot---- dont argue with me or your obviously racist to have a different oppinion!!!

See what i mean?

Oh yeah, and did i mention i'm jewish now? (eats a rash of bacon)

Funnily enough, I was a Catholic that converted to Agnosticim (in a way). And yet it didn't change my life. Know why? Because the reason I converted was because I already held those beliefs. Officially claiming myself to be Agnostic was not lie altering, as I already identified with that religion. People don't change religion because they feel like it. They convert because they identify with the beliefs of that religion. It's like a girl - who was born that way, of course - saying "being a girl changed my life!" Being something that you already are isn't "life changing."

Now you're contradicting yourself. You said that religion was a life-changing experience (twice now, I might add). How can you possibly expect such an important, life-changing experience to not effect how you think and feel? Either it's life-changing or it's not. If it is, then you can't pick and chose when other people use that to influence their decision.

Firstly, i see religion very differently to genders. You are born female, for example. But even if you were raised catholic and you family is catholic, you don't just establish from the second you were born-- "Hey, i'm catholic" and there's no way at the stage of birth you could even know what a belief is, let alone have any right after your birth.

I said that religion is life changing- that is still true. Just like dying your hair red is life changing. Becuase your life has changed. Because before you could of been brunette, and now you have blonde hair.
First you were catholic, now you are agnostic. this has changed your life. I NEVER stated in a big way. It's changed your life much like the "hair-dye" situation. You life is slightly different than what it was like before. That's just a fact. When i was a devout christian thanks to my parents, i went to chruch, prayed before meals and believed in a diety. Now i do not. This is a change from the life i lead before i became atheist. Therefore it is life changing. When did i say in a completly dramatic way?

Wait, didn't i remind you debating is sinful!?!?!?!?!? ARE YOU GOING AGAINST THE BIBLE?!?!?!?!?

(Yes, you are agnostic, but of course it is offencive not to include god in every literal thing, did you know that it is considered polite to pray before you take a bath? Ok, i made that up. But you get the picture. There is more to life than religion. Don't think about the "after-life", think about this life. Don't worship a god, be one yourself. because we all are. Don't talk to your god, talk to people who your 100 percent sure actually exist--- basically, GET THE HELL OFF THIS SPOT BECAUSE DEBATING IS SINFUL BECAUSE GOD CLAIMED IT WAS!!!!!!!)

Oh, and don't you think we're going slightly off the topic of the pick question...?

I'm glad you see gender and religion as two different things. (?). However, transgendered people change the way God made them. They are blatantly (according to the bible) telling them he was wrong. And that, (according to the bible) is wrong. If you are very religious telling God he is wrong is blasphemous and, again, wrong. Therefore, they are against it.

Religion influences decisions. As we've already covered.

For the third time now, my life is NOT DIFFERENT. I was born Catholic - my parents are both Catholic and I was baptized as a baby and accepted into the religion - but I did not believe there was a God. I did not pray. They only time I went to church is when I was forced. I did not read/live by/believe in the bible. Therefore, saying "I'm not Catholic" was not life changing. It was a statement of fact. I held many of the beliefs that Agnostics do. I have for a very, very long time. Therefore, claiming "I'm Agnostic" was not life changing. Nothing about me changed.

It's a little late for me to follow the bible ;) I'm on the highway to hell. No stops signs, no speed limit. I'm goin' down. All the way down.

Eh. I suppose in a way. You asked why people need to bring religion into this (and everything). I'm explaining why.

A few things:

A) Religion is personal, and for some, deeply connected with their morals and values. We debate things that require moral reasoning frequently in the debate spot, so people's religion comes up. We would never tell an Atheist to leave her morals at the door before debating.

B) I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with the "debating is against God" argument, so tell me if I'm wrong. But the religious don't just make up things that are "against god" or "rewrite" the Bible as an excuse or a reason to judge others. They have theological support, and it's often backed up with reasoned arguments. Obviously, we need Dearheart here to prove how reasonable and logical a religious person can be.

Lastly: "@ cinders, i once made out with my best friend the good part of four years ago at a party. Now, we are still best friends but i have a boyfriend....and she has a fiance- both of these people are of the opposite gender. I'm not saying that anyone does anything for attention, all i'm saying is that theres a difference between being bisexxual and being bi- curious."

I never said bisexuality equaled bicuriosity. In fact, I believe I said the exact opposite. I said that a person who is experimenting (or "bicurious" as you put it, a term I don't like, but for other reasons) or who falls in love with a person of an unexpected sex, will identify him or herself as doing so. S/he will not identify as gay or bisexual.

Sexual orientation labels are defined by those who adopt them. I cannot say what someone else's sexuality is, only they can. One of my favorite examples in this comes from Torchwood (the BBC series). The character Ianto explains to his sister why he's seeing another man: "It's not...men. It's... it’s just him. It's only him."

"We would never tell an Atheist to leave her morals at the door before debating."

Oh, i wasn't banning religion or the beliefs of it, i just find it quite rich how as we follow these beliefs, if god said the exact opposite, our oppinions change and is tailored to what your religion expects of you. that, in my oppinion, doesn't seem like the best way to live.

^But doesn't that happen with everything? If science proved that doing crack improved your health, more people would be for it. If science proved that cows had developed a disease that was deadly to humans, people would be against eating cow meat. Facts can change just as often as religous texts.

except facts can be proven.

besides, didn't you take a oppisizing veiw here?: link

except facts can be proven.
Yes. And...?

besides, didn't you take a oppisizing veiw here?
Um, no? Saying "This offends God" is a bad argument isn't the same thing as understanding why religion influences people's views.

"except facts can be proven.
Yes. And...?"

religious beliefs can't. no religious beliefs can. AT ALL. no one can prove god exists, no one can proof he/she does. all you can do is take a wild stab in the dark. anyway, ""This offends God" is a common arguement (used on this very forum) which cries out "that offends god" and thats what i meant when i said keep god out of this. i didn't mean abandon your beliefs, or refuse to show them, i just think "god" is a crappy argument for the transsexual issue, which is why i posted it in the first place.

...You completely missed my point. It wasn't about what can be proven. It was about how people change their minds when other things change. Whether it be scientific fact or religious text.

ah, i see. you mean that in metaphorical or literal terms?

... what?

Metaphor: noun.
1)A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison.
2)One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol.

Literal: adjective.
1) in accordance with, involving, or being the primary or strict meaning of the word or words; not figurative or metaphorical: the literal meaning of a word.
2) following the words of the original very closely and exactly.
3) true to fact; not exaggerated; actual or factual: a literal description of conditions.

You tell me. And if you say 'metaphorically,' explain what exactly I'm comparing or what the symbolism is.

i thought seeing you said it you would know what it meant? you said when people change their minds it because other things change. did you mean that literally or metaphorically? was it symbolic or did you simply mean when people change it's because something else changed? i was kind of hoping you would know.

I'm pretty sure i know what those two words mean ^, but thanks for the english lesson. ^-^

I'm actually going to say you you're wrong on knowing those words. "People's minds change when other things change." There's no comparison to anything. There's no symbolism of anything. So, if you knew the definition of 'metaphor,' how could you ask if I was being metaphorical?

For the record, I'm not being metaphorical. I'm being literal. People literally change their mind about something when something literally changes. If they think meat is good, and science comes and proves it's not, they will literally change their mind about thinking meat is good.

Agree with what sapherequeen stated.


edit: Some people are just idiots.